Perfect Swords? - Page 4 - Guild Wars Forums

kobey · Mar 10, 2008, 04:14 PM // 16:14

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Originally Posted by Dark Kal

LOL

you're a pretty funny guy. Have you ever played a monk seriously? Healing a guy every 30 seconds for over an hours becomes a huge annoyance, just because he wants to do a marginal increase in damage. Hero/hench will waste much of their energy on trying to constantly heal you so that they'll have little left when you really need it. Not swapping weapons most definitly puts sundering on top as the better mod.

5e per 30 secs will drain the hero's energy? And that is when you are not fighting a mob. When fighting a mob, the -1 degen is being canceled out by the 3 health steal it gets.

And if you are really lazy to swap (which i always am too), feel free to stick with sundering.

As for me, I put random mods, vamp, sundering or whatever on my swords. I use which ever skin I feel like using and swap as and when I feel like it. So to me, its not really a big issue if you feel the additional dmg gained from vamp is not worthed your time and effort to swap.

Just that it is rather wrong for you to insist Sundering > Vamp based on not needing to swap.

Deathaxe Raizer · Mar 10, 2008, 04:19 PM // 16:19

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Originally Posted by Vix

so the fact that you get healed with each hit slipped your mind? it more than compensates for the -1hp, especially with an attack speed buff

And you will most likely have a monk backline.

Dark Kal · Mar 11, 2008, 11:11 AM // 11:11

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Originally Posted by kobey

5e per 30 secs will drain the hero's energy?

You try explaining your hero/hench he can only use a skill every 30 seconds, in reality your hero/hench will constantly try to heal the degen not just every 30 seconds, hence wasting a lot of energy. Unless you block all of his healing skills, manually heal every 30 seconds and either unblock all his healing skills every time you get into a fight or take on the job as healer as well. I can assure you that will get very annoying, and you will much rather swap weapons constantly. You could just ignore the energy wasted but the vampiric mod is definitely not the better choice then.

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When fighting a mob, the -1 degen is being canceled out by the 3 health steal it gets.

The health gain is very marginal and a big misconception that most people make is that it heals a lot, it only heals you around 1 hp per second assuming you use an IAS skill and all of your attacks hit, so it barely breaks-even with the health degen it causes. Another thing most people forget to take into account is that enemies don't stand still they'll be chasing after your spellcasters, they use defensive stances, they use knockdown, they use blind, not 100% of your attacks hit, if you use any non-attack skill you'll be losing health... People just over-idealize that they will be constantly attacking and all of their attacks will always hit, this however is an over-simplified concept and doesn't reflect reality. That's the reason vampiric sounds good in theory, most people figure it does more damage than sundering and it heals you so it must be better than sundering but they negate any negative effects the mod has. It's easy to glorify anything by just mentioning it's strenghts and negating any weaknesses it may have. The reasons I gave, is why in practice the vampiric isn't very usefull (unless you don't mind swapping your weapon all of the time, including when running after enemies, etc.) especially for the marginal increase in damage that it does. If it really was that practical people would use it more, but reality is most people (including myself) are just plain too lazy to constantly swap a weapon for the little damage increase it does. In ideal conditions I'd recommend a different mod for different situations but in general the sundering mod is the most convenient one and henceforth the reason why sundering > vampiric.

This mostly sums up what I said in my deleted post hence why I'm quite frustrated at the idiot who wiped it, since it actually was relevant.

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Just that it is rather wrong for you to insist Sundering > Vamp based on not needing to swap.

The health degen while not attacking and constant swapping is the reason people don't like to use vampiric mods in general, it's not something to be merely dismissed as unimportant.

It is rather wrong for you to insist Vamp > Sundering based on that it just does more damage (not mentioning the heal since at best it will break-even with the degen).

kobey · Mar 11, 2008, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

You try explaining your hero/hench he can only use a skill every 30 seconds, in reality your hero/hench will constantly try to heal the degen not just every 30 seconds, hence wasting a lot of energy. Unless you block all of his healing skills, manually heal every 30 seconds and either unblock all his healing skills every time you get into a fight or take on the job as healer as well. I can assure you that will get very annoying, and you will much rather swap weapons constantly. You could just ignore the energy wasted but the vampiric mod is definitely not the better choice then.

Never ever need to do that, never ever had a problem. You probably need to change your hero build if your hero has problem managing your vamp degen and his energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

The health gain is very marginal and a big misconception that most people make is that it heals a lot, it only heals you around 1 hp per second assuming you use an IAS skill and all of your attacks hit, so it barely breaks-even with the health degen it causes. Another thing most people forget to take into account is that enemies don't stand still they'll be chasing after your spellcasters, they use defensive stances, they use knockdown, they use blind, not 100% of your attacks hit, if you use any non-attack skill you'll be losing health... People just over-idealize that they will be constantly attacking and all of their attacks will always hit, this however is an over-simplified concept and doesn't reflect reality. That's the reason vampiric sounds good in theory, most people figure it does more damage than sundering and it heals you so it must be better than sundering but they negate any negative effects the mod has. It's easy to glorify anything by just mentioning it's strenghts and negating any weaknesses it may have. The reasons I gave, is why in practice the vampiric isn't very usefull (unless you don't mind swapping your weapon all of the time, including when running after enemies, etc.) especially for the marginal increase in damage that it does. If it really was that practical people would use it more, but reality is most people (including myself) are just plain too lazy to constantly swap a weapon for the little damage increase it does. In ideal conditions I'd recommend a different mod for different situations but in general the sundering mod is the most convenient one and henceforth the reason why sundering > vampiric.

1: Vamp heals you 1.38 heal per sec to be exact with IAS. But then again, who use vamp for its healing purposes?
2: Once again, if the -1 degen really bothers you, something is greatly wrong.
3: So are you saying Sundering isn't affected by block stances, blinds, KDs etc? If not, why are you saying its a bad thing for vamp?
4: Agree that some people are lazy to swap, feel free to use sundering if you think that save you the trouble of swapping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

The health degen while not attacking and constant swapping is the reason people don't like to use vampiric mods in general, it's not something to be merely dismissed as unimportant.

It is rather wrong for you to insist Vamp > Sundering based on that it just does more damage (not mentioning the heal since at best it will break-even with the degen).

I said vamp > Sundering on the basis of more damage. Whats wrong with that statement?

Without IAS, you gain 0.25 health per sec, with IAS, you gain 1.38 health per sec. Breakeven???

Anyway, Vamp vs Sundering has nothing to do with the original post. Its has been discussed, proven and decided over and over again. Arguing again over it will be pointless. Come to think of it, I feel stupid trying to argue. Feel free to use what you like to, and I will do the same too.

/signing off

arcanemacabre · Mar 11, 2008, 12:27 PM // 12:27

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Originally Posted by kobey

Never ever need to do that, never ever had a problem.

Me either. I rarely swap when using a vamp weapon, and the hero monks never have energy issues healing. They certainly do it more often than once every 30 seconds, but it's also a lot less often than 'at recharge.' I'd say on average every 5-10 seconds, which leaves more than enough energy regen between battles to go back up to full. It's not a problem.

1 degen is just as bad as 1 regen is good. That should put things into perspective.

BTW, the best mod is entirely dependent on what's needed for the job. Sundering will get some occasional spikes of damage, while Vamp is superior for overall DPS. Really, simple as that.

Dark Kal · Mar 11, 2008, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by kobey

Never ever need to do that, never ever had a problem. You probably need to change your hero build if your hero has problem managing your vamp degen and his energy.

I never use a vampiric weapon. The facts speak for themselves unless I constantly swap (which I'm too lazy for) it is a waste to use a vampiric weapon for it's slightly more damage that it does. I only know heroes over-heal any degen more than every 30 seconds, which is a waste even if they wait to regen all of their energy before doing it again, because if he's regening energy while you attack a group he will have less energy than he normally would have.

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1: Vamp heals you 1.38 heal per sec to be exact with IAS. But then again, who use vamp for its healing purposes?
2: Once again, if the -1 degen really bothers you, something is greatly wrong.
3: So are you saying Sundering isn't affected by block stances, blinds, KDs etc? If not, why are you saying its a bad thing for vamp?
4: Agree that some people are lazy to swap, feel free to use sundering if you think that save you the trouble of swapping.

1. Actually it heals for 0.25hp per second (normal), 1 hp per second (IAS 25%), 1.33 hp per second (IAS 33%) (Using fractures gives more accurate results than Guild Wiki). This all doesn't matter all that much that's why I gave an estimate. I merely mentioned it to point out that vampiric hardly heals you.
2. If it doesn't bother you something is wrong. It makes you very depended on either your monk or weapon swapping.
3. You completely missed the point. You aren't constantly healed for 1.33 hp per second with an IAS 33% skill, there are many things that intervene with the heal effect of a vampiric mod (you only steal 3hp if your attack hits) but you constantly suffer the health degen. Therefor you generally aren't really healed while attacking because you spend a lot of time running after enemies etc. which greatly negates any small heal the vampiric mod might provide hence why I said it barely breaks-even.
4. I do and I'm certain it saves me the trouble of having to swap weapons.

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I said vamp > Sundering on the basis of more damage. Whats wrong with that statement?

Because you are not taking everything into account your just claiming something is better because it does more damage, with disregard of all the negative effects.

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Without IAS, you gain 0.25 health per sec, with IAS, you gain 1.38 health per sec. Breakeven???

Because you're not constantly attacking while in combat and not all of your attacks hit. See above.

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Anyway, Vamp vs Sundering has nothing to do with the original post.

It's relevant to the original post because it proves why it's the favored mod on a sword.

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Its has been discussed, proven and decided over and over again. Arguing again over it will be pointless. Come to think of it, I feel stupid trying to argue.

Yes, and the world is flat.

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Feel free to use what you like to, and I will do the same too.

Let's leave it at that. I mean this in the least offensive way but you are either not intelligent enough or to close minded to understand my point of view.

kobey · Mar 11, 2008, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

Let's leave it at that. I mean this in the least offensive way but you are either not intelligent enough or to close minded to understand my point of view.

Nice one mate, to resort to personal attacks.

arcanemacabre · Mar 12, 2008, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

I never use a vampiric weapon. The facts speak for themselves unless I constantly swap (which I'm too lazy for) it is a waste to use a vampiric weapon for it's slightly more damage that it does. I only know heroes over-heal any degen more than every 30 seconds, which is a waste even if they wait to regen all of their energy before doing it again, because if he's regening energy while you attack a group he will have less energy than he normally would have.

It's not a problem, I know from experience. You, on the other hand, have never used a vamp weapon, so you're running entirely on assumptions. Way to go.

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Originally Posted by Dark Kal

Because you're not constantly attacking while in combat and not all of your attacks hit. See above.

And you're casually forgetting that there are many attacks that hit multiple foes, going above and beyond a standard IAS for hits per second.

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Originally Posted by Dark Kal

Yes, and the world is flat.

Funny you should bring this up, since it is very noticeable that the majority seem to prefer Sundering for damage despite proof for Vamp as superior damage. The world is flat, indeed.

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Originally Posted by Dark Kal

understand my point of view.

Your point of view is crystal clear - you don't use Vamp entirely because of that scary 1 degen.

Dark Kal · Mar 12, 2008, 10:36 AM // 10:36

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Originally Posted by kobey

Nice one mate, to resort to personal attacks.

You'r quite right that was kind of appropriate of me. I didn't mean to offend you, I was just trying to say we don't see eye to eye. I retract previous said statement. I hope you can accept my apologies.

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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

It's not a problem, I know from experience. You, on the other hand, have never used a vamp weapon, so you're running entirely on assumptions. Way to go.

I know from my experience playing a warrior as well as the theory behind vampiric swords that they aren't viable for me. And I have tried running a vampiric sword in the beginning and even with mending it wasn't worth it for me.

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And you're casually forgetting that there are many attacks that hit multiple foes, going above and beyond a standard IAS for hits per second.

Although I don't agree that there are "many" skills, you do bring up an intresting point which should be held into consideration. Regardlessly I hope we can agree that the healthgain from a vampiric sword is minimal at best during combat.

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Funny you should bring this up, since it is very noticeable that the majority seem to prefer Sundering for damage despite proof for Vamp as superior damage. The world is flat, indeed.

That's the entire point I was trying to make just because vampiric does more damage does not mean it's the superior weapon. Both vampiric and sundering have good and bad points. Damage increase is only one aspect, if you customize a sword it will add +20% damage does that mean you should customize every weapon? Just because the health degen doesn't bother you doesn't mean it doesn't bother anyone else. Most people don't like the health degen that's why vampiric is less popular plain and simple. I do not believe neither vampiric nor sundering nor any other mod for that matter makes a noticeable enough difference, so why should I put up with a -1 health degen when I can choose a mod without any requirements and without any negative effects. If you really feel the increased damage is worth the - 1 health degen that's fine too but don't say vampiric is better just because it does more damage. I think we're best to just agree to disagree or we'll just keep going in circles.

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Your point of view is crystal clear - you don't use Vamp entirely because of that scary 1 degen.

It's not scary it's annoying. I think kobey said it best:

Feel free to use what you like to, and I will do the same too.

arcanemacabre · Mar 12, 2008, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

Regardlessly I hope we can agree that the healthgain from a vampiric sword is minimal at best during combat.

That is part of the point, the health gain is just as minimal as the health loss. No, they don't cancel each other out, but you would only lose outside combat, and gain much more during combat. The point is that the health you lose with 1 degen is negligible, just as the health you gain in combat is negligible. Of course, that also means the DPS you gain is just as negligible, and yet somehow is still more than you would get with Sundering, which just shows you how unimportant these two mods are in the first place. Really, in the great scheme of things, 2 adrenaline in one hit every 10 hits actually does sound a lot better than a few points of extra damage in those 10 hits...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

Damage increase is only one aspect, if you customize a sword it will add +20% damage does that mean you should customize every weapon?

You mean you don't? Yet you care so much about Sundering's 20% AP every 5 hits, when 20% more damage is so much better?

Really, it all comes down to: 'What is perfect?' If the situation calls for increased DPS and physical damage, the choice is clearly Vamp. If you need increased damage and physical isn't required - Elemental with a Conjure. If you need physical damage with an energy intensive build - Zealous. If you need random spikes - Sundering. I just can't think of any situations in PvE where you would need random spikes. Hammers and Scythes are decent with Sundering for this reason, especially when you see that huge number thanks to a SunderCrit, but I'm not sure if that is better overall than a constant 5 steal each hit.

Dark Kal · Mar 12, 2008, 01:11 PM // 13:11

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Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

That is part of the point, the health gain is just as minimal as the health loss. No, they don't cancel each other out, but you would only lose outside combat, and gain much more during combat. The point is that the health you lose with 1 degen is negligible, just as the health you gain in combat is negligible. Of course, that also means the DPS you gain is just as negligible, and yet somehow is still more than you would get with Sundering, which just shows you how unimportant these two mods are in the first place.

Mmm, I disagree with you that the health gain is a lot because even at impossible perfect conditions where you gain 1.33 hp per second all of the time it's still not a lot IMHO. The -1 health degen might not be that big of a deal if you get into battle every 15-30 seconds or so, but I'm not constantly fighting sometimes I'm running around trying to avoid aggro, etc. The health degen might not bother you and that's fine but it does bother me. It's just something we have a different opinion on and I don't think either of us is going to change it

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Really, in the great scheme of things, 2 adrenaline in one hit every 10 hits actually does sound a lot better than a few points of extra damage in those 10 hits...

Unless you mainly have adrenaline skills on your bar the furious mod is a waste. I've used the furious mod for an extensive time period, but I really didn't notice much difference with or without. The double adrenaline gain every 10th hit is extremely marginal. And the furious mod does force you to have atleast one adrenaline skill on your bar at all times while sundering doesn't have any requirement. But you're free to use whatever you want.

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You mean you don't? Yet you care so much about Sundering's 20% AP every 5 hits, when 20% more damage is so much better?

If you read my previous posts you'd know I don't care for either mod, I don't find sundering's or vampiric's damage increase noticeable enough to care, my skills and my team's skills are the things that do damage.

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Really, it all comes down to: 'What is perfect?' If the situation calls for increased DPS and physical damage, the choice is clearly Vamp. If you need increased damage and physical isn't required - Elemental with a Conjure. If you need physical damage with an energy intensive build - Zealous. If you need random spikes - Sundering. I just can't think of any situations in PvE where you would need random spikes. Hammers and Scythes are decent with Sundering for this reason, especially when you see that huge number thanks to a SunderCrit, but I'm not sure if that is better overall than a constant 5 steal each hit.

Ideally you want a different mod for different situations/builds I agree. But sundering is the best general mod i.e. if you could only choose one mod for your sword. But I'm rather tired of repeating myself over and over again as are you probably so what do you say we just drop this argument and agree to disagree?

Cowthief Dim · Apr 01, 2008, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Well, personally, I'd take the vampiric, especially if you dont have any good healing skills because hitting for health makes a big difference and -1hp regenerate is like no difference. If, however, you were a warrior and it was -1 energy then u'd be like WTF that sucks, however the fact of the matter IS that if it has perfect mods; 20/20, +10 furious, 3/-1 etc. is always perfect, its just a matter of which one you would prefer, and who you're actually going to be fighting, along with the fact that you're build might be good/bad. if u have a W/Mo I might use sundering or a furious, but not a vampiric. This changes with each build. Eg. if you have something other than a W/Mo, I, personally, would choose the vampiric. If u have a W/Mo i'd choose furious or sundering or maybe zealous. At the end of the day it's what YOU want, what YOU will be fighting, and what YOUR build is.

~ Word From Da Wise ~

Red Sand · Apr 01, 2008, 10:07 PM // 22:07

/excited

Perfect is max damage, max mods, even when the mod is something silly like +1 axe (20%).

Oh, and my monks get annoyed when I put on my vamp weapons in a fight and forget to swap them out when we are moving to the next objective.

Apr 01, 2008, 10:07 PM // 22:07	#73
Red Sand Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New England Guild: Warriors of Wynd [WoW] Profession: W/	/excited Perfect is max damage, max mods, even when the mod is something silly like +1 axe (20%). Oh, and my monks get annoyed when I put on my vamp weapons in a fight and forget to swap them out when we are moving to the next objective. Last edited by Red Sand; Apr 01, 2008 at 10:13 PM // 22:13..

Apr 01, 2008, 07:27 AM // 07:27	#72
Cowthief Dim Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Mar 2008 Guild: Guild Of The Chaosbringer [Wyrm] Profession: W/Mo	Well, personally, I'd take the vampiric, especially if you dont have any good healing skills because hitting for health makes a big difference and -1hp regenerate is like no difference. If, however, you were a warrior and it was -1 energy then u'd be like WTF that sucks, however the fact of the matter IS that if it has perfect mods; 20/20, +10 furious, 3/-1 etc. is always perfect, its just a matter of which one you would prefer, and who you're actually going to be fighting, along with the fact that you're build might be good/bad. if u have a W/Mo I might use sundering or a furious, but not a vampiric. This changes with each build. Eg. if you have something other than a W/Mo, I, personally, would choose the vampiric. If u have a W/Mo i'd choose furious or sundering or maybe zealous. At the end of the day it's what YOU want, what YOU will be fighting, and what YOUR build is. ~ Word From Da Wise ~